Legislate from the bench, a growing trend

Hey Libs, has that pesky voice of the people thing got you down? Go to the courts and let a couple judges change the laws for you.  Nothing like a good old dictatorship.  Keep forcing laws on us liberals, cause you guys know what is better for us.  We are just dumb close minded religious crazies.  NeoCons.  Don't mind us, we are just "We the people"

And the libs think we stole elections. At least we follow the good ol US democratic process.

This from DeseretNews.com and everywhere else this morning: (At least this article isn't totally anti-american)

New Jersey court opens the door to gay marriage

4-3 vote still gives lawmakers final call

By Geoff Mulvihill
Associated Press and
Deborah Bulkeley
Deseret Morning News
      TRENTON, N.J. — With New Jersey's highest court opening the door to making the state the second in the nation to allow gay marriage, Utah activists on both sides of the issue offered differing opinions on its potential effects.
Image
Mike Derer, Associated Press
Carol McFadden, center, hugs her daughter's partner, Marcye Nicholson-McFadden, as her daughter, Karen Nicholson-McFadden, sits with couple's daughter, Maya, in Newark, N.J., Wednesday.
      In a ruling Wednesday that fell short of what either side wanted or feared, the New Jersey Supreme Court declared 4-3 that homosexual couples are entitled to the same rights as heterosexual ones. The justices gave lawmakers 180 days to rewrite the laws.
      The ruling is similar to the 1999 high-court ruling in Vermont that led the state to create civil unions, which confer all of the rights and benefits available to married couples under state law.
      "Although we cannot find that a fundamental right to same-sex marriage exists in this state, the unequal dispensation of rights and benefits to committed same-sex partners can no longer be tolerated under our state Constitution," Justice Barry T. Albin wrote for the four-member majority.
      The court said the state's Legislature "must either amend the marriage statutes to include same-sex couples or create a parallel statutory structure" that gives gays all the privileges and obligations married couples have.
      The three dissenters argued that the majority did not go far enough. They demanded full marriage for gays.
      In Utah, Bill Duncan, director of the Marriage Law Foundation, said the ruling re-affirms the need for the wording in Utah's constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage that also bans other similar domestic unions.
      "This decision makes it absolutely clear that those arguing that additional language is unecessary are clearly wrong," Duncan said. "It's now pretty obvious that courts are willing to order the (marriage) benefits, even if they're not willing to go all the way."
      Mike Thompson, director of Equality Utah, disagreed, calling the New Jersey decision hopeful because it "properly recognizes there is no legal basis to discriminate against same-sex couples."
      "There's no legitimate reason to discriminate against these families," he said. "It saddens me that in Utah families don't have the same types of protections that they do in New Jersey."
      Gay rights activists had seen New Jersey as a promising place because it is a largely Democratic state in the Northeast. The only state to allow gay marriage is Massachusetts. The only states allowing civil unions are Vermont and Connecticut. New Jersey is also one of just five states that have no law or constitutional amendment expressly banning gay marriage.
      If the court had legalized gay marriage outright, the effect could have been more far-reaching, and New Jersey could have become more of a magnet for gay couples than Massachusetts, which has a law barring out-of-state couples from marrying there if their marriages would not be recognized in their home states. New Jersey has no such law.
      A clear-cut ruling legalizing gay marriage this close to Election Day could also have been a political bombshell, galvanizing Republicans and the religious right. Eight states have gay-marriage bans on their ballots in November.
      New Jersey Republicans, who are in the minority in the Legislature, said they would work to ban same-sex unions by enacting a constitutional amendment.
      For gay rights advocates, there was debate over whether the ruling was a victory.
      Lara Schwartz, legal director of Human Rights Campaign, said if legislators have to choose between civil unions and marriage, it is a no-lose situation for gay couples. "They get to decide whether it's chocolate or double-chocolate chip," Schwartz said.
      Steven Goldstein, executive director of Garden State Equality, New Jersey's main gay rights group, said his organization wants nothing short of marriage. "We get to go from the back of the bus to the middle of the bus," he complained.
      The New Jersey high court castigated the treatment homosexuals receive under the law.
      "The seeming ordinariness of plaintiffs' lives is belied by the social indignities and economic difficulties that they daily face due to the inferior legal standing of their relationships compared to that of married couples," the court said.
      Outside the court, news of the ruling caused confusion, with many of the roughly 100 gay marriage supporters outside asking each other what it meant.
      "I'm definitely encouraged," said Chris Lodewyks, one of the plaintiffs who gathered at a Newark law office. But he added, "I'm not sure what this exactly means in terms of marriage."
      Another plaintiff, Saundra Toby-Heath, was more effusive: "I feel they were listening and paying attention to us as human beings who wanted to have the same rights."
      Garden State Equality, New Jersey's main gay political organization, quickly announced that three lawmakers would introduce a bill in the Legislature to give full marriage rights to gay couples.
      "New Jersey is a progressive state and has a tradition of tolerance," said one of the lawmakers, Democratic Assemblyman Reed Gusciora.
      GOP Assemblyman Richard Merkt said he would seek to have all seven justices impeached. "Neither the framers of New Jersey's 1947 constitution, nor the voters who ratified it, ever remotely contemplated the possibility of same-sex marriage," Merkt said.
      Gay couples in New Jersey can already apply for domestic partnerships under a law passed in 2004. Among other things, domestic partnerships give couples the right to inherit possessions if there is no will and health-care coverage for partners of state employees.
      Democratic Gov. Jon S. Corzine supports domestic partnerships, but not gay marriage.
      Supporters pushing for full gay marriage have had a two-year losing streak in state courts, including those in New York, Washington state, and both Nebraska and Georgia, where voter-approved bans on gay marriage were reinstated.
      They also have suffered at the ballot boxes in 16 states where constitutions have been amended to ban same-sex unions.
      Cases similar to the one ruled on Wednesday, which was filed by seven gay New Jersey couples, are pending in California, Connecticut, Iowa and Maryland.

Posted Oct 26 2006, 09:17 AM by Splittfinger

Comments

Rcougar wrote re: Legislate from the bench, a growing trend
on 10-26-2006 11:33 AM
This is crazy the courts should not be making this decision it should be the people by way of a vote. this should not be decided by 7 people in a state with a population of 8,717,925. This should be before all the people not just the state government.
Hayduke wrote re: Legislate from the bench, a growing trend
on 10-26-2006 3:40 PM
OK Splitt,

If you can demonstrate how this so-called "issue" negatively affects you in your daily life as an American citizen, and not just your finer sensibilities, I'll debate this with you.

But, keep in mind; part of the Democratic Process - which you tout - is based upon allowing judges, which "We The People" elected, make decisions for you.

And.............go!
RationalRepublican wrote re: Legislate from the bench, a growing trend
on 10-26-2006 10:12 PM
Perhaps you may remember a document you may have once read. Something called the Constitution?

Good reading and I heartly suggest you all read or re-read it.  After that, perhaps the Declaration of Independance. Obviously it would be educational.  There are principles in the constitution that say there can be situations where a vote could be 8,717,925 to 7 and the 7 could still win.  10 brownie points for the first one to enumerate an example. The theme might be early mormon history.

I would have to look closely at the decision, but there is an equal protection clause in many state constitutions and one could argue that since same sex couples are not breaking any laws, they should be treated equally.  Reading the federalist papers you quickly see that states are suppose to be laboratories of democracy and for those that read the constitution closely you see the states are given a lot of rights. States have to authority to recognize same sex marriages and if some choose to do so, others are not supposed to be able to stop them. (Unless of course the constituion is amended.)

I see no arguments suggesting that the court's arguments were faulty.  I hear a lot of whining about a decision that did not kowtow to the right wing fanaticism of Do it my way or it is evil.  

Good old, and I mean old, Orrin Hatch fell into many of the same worn out critisims. The justices are standing up for democracy when they decide in his favor and they are activist if they DARE go against his demands.  This crazy need for repulicans to whine whenever anyone opposes them or disagrees is tiresome. He also makes the tiresome argument of the majority should always rule. We Thomas Jefferson and others disagreed and added the Bill of Rights so that no matter how much the majority wanted something it did not matter.  Justices have to decide how to limit the majority power and as you can see from the right wing comments in this blog that is a dangerous road.  Activists, communists, legislating from the bench.  Funny not one of those is a reason that opposes the decision.  But how could there possibley be a reason when the whole argument from the right wing is based on "BUT I DON"T LIKE IT"

The judge in the dover case is a good example.  Nominated by bush, conservative in most of his opinons. He makes one ruling that right wing repubs don't like and he is "ACTIVIST"   Which is another repub code word for unpatriotic.

If you think that 7 people in a state with a population of 8,717,925 should not make this decision then I challenge you to come up with a better system.

For bonus points "what is the check on the Judicial power"

Democracy is a messy business. The NJ court had the guts to make a tough decision. Now the other branches of government can no longer ignore and treat many of it's citizens as if they are second class citizens. They have to look it in the face and decide the issue.  

You may have heard: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

In writing these words our forefathers wrongly excluded blacks.  But the words are powerful and someday we will live up to them. Do they apply to gays. Of course they do, but what are the limits.  We are living in a time where Gays are no longer content to be discriminated against and take up their cause. They no longer are content to "sit in the back of the bus."

As for Republicans following democratic processes, they do so as much or as little as the democrats.  Republicans have gerrymandered districts so that incumbents are less likely to loose than in an election than members of the Soviet Politburo did at the height of the Soviet union.  (AH that is democracy.)  The republicans should not lose the house and senate, but the fact that the election is so close, shows how angry the American voter is over the policies of the current administration.  
Splittfinger wrote re: Legislate from the bench, a growing trend
on 10-27-2006 9:29 AM
I have read the Constitution over and over, if fact i just finished reading it again.  So i might suggest the same back to you. I read it very often. The early Mormon history doesn't apply because religious freedom IS a Constitutional right.  Gay marriage isn't.

Here is a test for you two.

Let's say that some decide that they want to allow murder of some people, because they are not fit for society.  And they can make a constitutional case for it because "thou shalt not kill" is one of those dumb Christian NeoCons scripture things and not in the Constitution.

The laws of the land already look down on killing people. So the people who feel like they need this "right" protest and lobby and call the legislators.

It makes it on the ballot.  The American people resoundingly turn it down. 80% and more.

These people are still not happy, so they go to the courts, and not any courts, but the courts they know that believe what they do.  The courts then rule that people actually do have the right to kill if the victim is not fit for society.

There is a problem with the scenario that I just presented you.  If you can find it, you will see why this is wrong.  Please read the Constitution for help.
Splittfinger wrote re: Legislate from the bench, a growing trend
on 10-27-2006 9:35 AM
heyduke, i'm not sure where i claimed that this so-called "issue" negatively affects me in your daily life as an American citizen.  So, i'm not sure why things negatively affecting American citizens is the issue.

However, i can make this case, but won't I on this post. Monday I will post a discussion about this issue and how it affects me negatively, and we can have that debate, it sounds fun.
Hayduke wrote re: Legislate from the bench, a growing trend
on 10-27-2006 10:03 AM
I don't think anything more needs to be said about this one (from my POV), RR pretty much covered it as far as I'm concerned.

I might still consider debating this with you, but for one or two things. I refuse to debate religious notions of right or wrong with people. You obviously feel that homosexuality is wrong, and much of that likely stems from your religious beliefs. There's no way to present a fair argument based on feelings or religious beliefs. True debate needs to be based on factual evidence, otherwise, there is no way to measure it. It must be quantified. I can sit here and state that you're being silly, and you can do the same to me, but in the end, we'll land exactly where we started. I don't think you can come up with a legal reason that gay folk should not have the same rights that you do, or a legal reason that this court was out of order when it declared its decision. Otherwise, you would have by now.

Secondly, the fact that you attempted to liken homosexuality to legalized murder as a basis for your "test" is just stupid.

Maybe next time.
Rcougar wrote re: Legislate from the bench, a growing trend
on 10-27-2006 10:51 AM
I was not talking about the issue when I commented I was only talking about what was done by the justices. This is not an issue that should be decided by the courts but the people of the state. If you want to talk about this issue that is fine but when a majority of the people in the United States do not support gay marriage the courts should not be forcing it upon them. If there was a problem with the wording of the states constituion then this should be addressed and the appropriate amount of time to fix and allow the people to vote on the change should be given before the a change is made. This is an issue that the people should decide! not our elected officials, or elected and/or appointed judges but the people of the country.
Desechado wrote re: Legislate from the bench, a growing trend
on 10-27-2006 10:58 AM
I find it interresting that the court will go against a popular vote. I understand that the court is there to check the legislature, but they are only there to check the population in the courtroom if charges have been set; either for prosecution or tort law.

I find homosexuality a sin. However, I also agree that gays and lesbians have the right to a civil union. I have many friends that are *** and find the same story over and over again. One becomes very ill or injured, becomes hospitalized and their partner CANNOT visit them. Some may die and their partner may be a stay at home mother and WILL NOT receive retirement income from the deceased or any other benefits that my wife or I may have. Even though I do not agree with the life style, I agree with equal rights. Can anybody tell me how many states allow the benefits that I mentioned above for Common Law Marriage in a heterosexual setting?

This argument can transcent religion. Heyduke needs to realize that religious people can have an argument about this without bringing religion into it.
Hayduke wrote re: Legislate from the bench, a growing trend
on 10-27-2006 11:12 AM
Nobody's forcing anything on anybody. If you don't want to marry a person of the same sex, don't. Seems to me that the only people forcing their opinions on others are the zealots who are so against equal rights for guys and lesbians. This isn't a matter of gays forcing you to be gay, this is a matter of religious straight folk forcing their belief system on others, and then punishing people for their way of life if it's not in tune with their own.

In my opinion, this shouldn't be an issue at all. There are more important things to worry about. Things like war, hunger, genocide. You know, all those things that people choose to ignore in favor of worrying about who's sleeping with who and whatnot.

As far as elected officials not deciding on issues and/or actions for the masses. Would you support that statement when referring to our current presidential administration?
Hayduke wrote re: Legislate from the bench, a growing trend
on 10-27-2006 11:19 AM
I do realize that religious folk can bring a thoughtful arguement to the table without entwining it with religious beliefs. I just don't see it happening.

Besides that, if it weren't for this "sin" stuff based upon religious beliefs, this issue would be no issue at all. Like it or not, religion, and religious people, are at the crux of this nonsense.

I appreciate that you believe in rights for gays, though it goes against your personal views. I'm curious; did you vote for, or against #3?
Hayduke wrote re: Legislate from the bench, a growing trend
on 10-27-2006 11:23 AM
The question concerning the current administration (and the post in general) is directed at RCougar. Just trying to avoid unnecessary confusion.

I can see this baby twisting around already; I'm hopping off this merry-go-round.

Have a nice weekend, folks.
Splittfinger wrote re: Legislate from the bench, a growing trend
on 10-27-2006 11:31 AM
Hayduke, on your second comment, you just gained 10 points in my book.  You nailed it, on on the religious personal views.  The only area i disagree is that i believe there is a logical and fact based debate that can be made from the right side on this issue.  I will for sure post something on this Monday because i think it will be a great debate.
Also, I wasn't comparing homosexuality to murder, i was comparing a religious  or "ethic" topic in a Constitutional process. I happen to have someone very close to me that is gay, and i love them very much.
Last, i would like you to identify anything that this administration has done contrary to the common opinion of the masses.  (mind you, Iraq was supported by the masses, and has only changed over time, but not to a majority)
Desechado wrote re: Legislate from the bench, a growing trend
on 10-27-2006 11:38 AM
Like I said before, this issue can be talked about without speaking for or against religion. I think that a person that puts down religion is just as bad as the "religious" person who puts down anything that doesn't fit within their perseived morals.

The question asked by Splitt was about the courts being able to overrule the majority vote. I still hold to my original statement: "I find it interresting that the court will go against a popular vote. I understand that the court is there to check the legislature, but they are only there to check the population in the courtroom if charges have been set; either for prosecution or tort law."

And yes, even though my moral compass points toward no, I vote in favor of civil union between gays and lesbians. This is an issue that transcends religion into civil rights. Before, during and after the Civil War, many people used the religion band wagon to support why the Black Man was inslaved. There may not be much of a difference now.  
Splittfinger wrote re: Legislate from the bench, a growing trend
on 10-27-2006 11:42 AM
Well said, Desechado
Goosedyou wrote re: Legislate from the bench, a growing trend
on 10-27-2006 12:30 PM
As for the original point of this post: The Courts making laws rather than interpreting them.  If the courts will do this, how long will it be until they start denying freedoms?  This isn't the first time that a court has overruled popular vote.  In 2004, Arizona had something on their ballot.  It was a bill that discontinued State funding of healthcare clinics and educational facilities that specifically services illegal aliens.  The state voted in favor of the bill by over 70%.  A local district judge overturned the vote claiming that it "denied people their basic civil rights."  What civil rights do they have as illegal aliens?  Regardless of ethinc origin, if they aren't a citizen then they have no legal rights.  

It will be interesting to see how often the courts will keep doing this.
Desechado wrote re: Legislate from the bench, a growing trend
on 10-27-2006 12:39 PM
Goose makes an interresting point. Our judges are basically magistrates. Look in the past and see the nepotism from magistrates in the past. If they don't like it, they have power to destroy it. If they like it, they have power to uphold it.
Splittfinger wrote re: Legislate from the bench, a growing trend
on 10-27-2006 12:45 PM
Goosed brings up a the best example yet.  There is an interesting debate about courts over turning the voice of the people.
Goosedyou wrote re: Legislate from the bench, a growing trend
on 10-27-2006 12:55 PM
It's the House of Burgesses all over again!!! (you'll have to refer to US History for that reference)
Desechado wrote re: Legislate from the bench, a growing trend
on 10-27-2006 2:54 PM
Hayduke... This year prop #3 is about public transportation. I take it you are talking about prop #3 from last year. I would vote yes on both.
Powered by Community Server (Non-Commercial Edition), by Telligent Systems