From the Mind of Splittfinger » Who are the poor?

Who are the poor?

Interesting Article from RedState:

Listening to John Edwards these days, you'd think America's poor, a number the Census Bureau puts at 37 million, are in dire straits. While I certainly have sympathy for anyone who faces a daily struggle to make ends meet, the truth is that many of the 37 million who fall into the government's classification of poverty don't really have it all that bad, according to a new paper by my Heritage Foundation colleague Robert Rector.

Here's just a snippet of Rector's findings (which he highlighted in a National Review op-ed yesterday):

• 43% of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.

• 80% of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, in 1970, only 36% of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.

• Only 6% of poor households are over­crowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.

• The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)

More statistics on the jump ...

• Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 31% own two or more cars.

• 97% of poor households have a color television; more than half own two or more color televisions.

• 78% have a VCR or DVD player; 62% have cable or satellite TV reception.

• 89% own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and more than a third have an automatic dishwasher.

Don't get me wrong, I know there are many poor Americans who don't fall into any of these categories. But the fact is, as Rector notes in his paper, a little more work and a healthy marriage (and no out-of-wedlock births) would go a long way to reducing poverty -- and have better results than the government's throwing more money at the problem.

 

Posted Aug 28 2007, 10:34 AM by Splittfinger

Comments

Desechado wrote re: Who are the poor?
on 08-28-2007 11:58 AM
I think the biggest thing that would reduce poverty in the US is to stop coveting what we don't have. Many of us "poor" people actually make enough money to live good, comfortable lives. All too often, we buy a house that we cannot afford or a house needing repairs that we cannot afford or we do not have the skill to fix ourselves. We buy every new DVD that comes out and most CD's in whatever category of music we like. Our 27" TV's are not good enough and we need the 50" flat screen with theater speakers. Regular TV or basic cable is not good enough. We need the package with every movie channel and every football/baseball/basketball game there is. A sack lunch is usually out of the question and the list can go on.

I understand that there are many people who really are poor. I am not talking about them. I am talking about the people that our government has told are poor and they really are not. These are the people who are told that because they don't have a portfolio worth a million (or a few hundred thousand), they are poor. They are those who are told they are poor because they cannot own two new cars and support two car payments. They are told they are poor because in reality, they can only afford a house in "certain areas". Just owning a house that fits the family's needs isn't good enough. Enough of my soap box. You guys get my point.
Splittfinger wrote re: Who are the poor?
on 08-28-2007 1:46 PM
I get your point and you are very right.  The problem comes with "entitlement" the Bill of Rights doesn't give a person the right to happiness, but pursuit of happiness.  We should be free to pursue the things that make us happy, they shouldn't be given to you as a right.

There are people in prison that have more than the actual poor people, because our government consider it a right.

As you listen to the commercials on TV of just search the internet for the words "10 must haves" you see that the must haves aren't that at all.

And the most dangerous, is the idea that these 'so called' rights should be provided by the society, under the claim of Charity. When the government uses the words "social responsibility" run the other way.
Rcougar wrote re: Who are the poor?
on 08-28-2007 2:35 PM
I think Splitt hit it perfectly it is the sense of entitlement for many. We have a modest house, we have two cars the newest is a 2001 both are paid for, we pay for things as we go, I bring my lunch to work, I don't go out everyday. We have learned through hard times to save money, don't have alot of debt, and only buy things as you can afford them. This has worked well for us and after many years we are getting ahead. It has been hard at times to go without but it can be done.
Melchor wrote re: Who are the poor?
on 08-28-2007 7:48 PM
I think we are all in agreement about who the poor are and entitlement. what concerns me is when you guys mistake social responsibility with rights and charity. social responsibility is nothing more that giving opportunity where opportunity is not available or it is limited. take financial aid in our colleges and universities for example. many people take advantage of financial aid (whether student loans or grants) because otherwise they would not afford the tuition or be able to secure a loan without a guarantor. these programs may not be perfect, but the absence of them would create more poor, lessen the quality of life, and create a great gulf between the middle class and working class.
one thing that I find ironic. republicans want to stop or limit foreign aid and their argument is that if we stop doing this and invest this money into the people of our own country, we would be better off. then they complain about free lunch programs in our elementary schools and the cost of medicare for disabled americans. what they really want is to keep the money in their own pockets and not spread the wealth.
Rcougar wrote re: Who are the poor?
on 08-29-2007 9:16 AM
Melchor I think you are missing the point no one is saying the good programs should go. What we are saying is that people feel they are entitled to the big screen TV, Cable or Satellite, two cars, two cell phones and a house. I had to go into homes while I was in the elders quorum presidency to assess needs for church welfare and several of the homes had a nicer TV, Cable or Satellite, cell phones and such than what I had. Here's the point they needed help because they couldn't wait they went out and bought everything on credit and then couldn't pay for it all. To many of the poor feel they are entitled to those things rather than saving and buying these things one at a time.
Splittfinger wrote re: Who are the poor?
on 08-29-2007 10:26 AM
Melchor will find this funny, but i partially agree with him.  Where we disagree is where the responsibility lies.  The key word in my comment about Charity, and social responsibility was "Government".

Depending on how we are raised we may feel should have Charity for a person or persons.  We may feel a stong desire to help others and share what God has given us with others. We should always have that ability and right to help the poor, in any country.

However, the Government should not be in the business of determining who should be the recipient of my good will.  The Government should have no place in choosing between the disabled person or the starving child.  They shouldn't and don't have the resources or the moral standard to make that decision for me.

Social support should come from the family, church and "friends".  We should never obligate (aka force) someone by taxation to have a social responsibility.  This removes free agency, which removes responsibility.

One of the only moral obligations that a good government should have is to protect human live.

Anything else violates what truths you and i hold as from God:

D&C 134:2
We believe that no government can exist in peace, except such laws are framed and held inviolate as will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life

Free to think for ourselves, free to control property, and protect life.

It is not my responsibility to make sure some kids goes to college. Until i take care of my own, and or make it my responsibility by choice.  I have no social responsibility to do so.

Melchor wrote re: Who are the poor?
on 08-29-2007 11:55 AM
cougar rebutts my comments but misses my point. I agree with him and his comment. people need to use self control and budget their money and live within their means. what i'm talking about are the real poor. not the fake poor, poor because of debt or the ones that feel cheated in life because they cannot keep up with the jones.

if our country is founded and based on judeo-christian values, then why not let our government participate in those values. we should be excited that our country (with 90% of the worlds wealth) can help and make a difference.

it may not be our responsibility to help some kids go to college. it is a privilege. what comes around goes around. I think that most contemporay americans have been blessed one way or another by government programs. how many of us have grandparents or great grandparents that rose from poverty after WWII because of college education through the GI Bill? how many of us come from single parent families that have been blessed to have help with childcare, food on the table, clothes on their backs and educational opportunities that fifty years ago were only attainable by the few? this list can go on and on. some of you say that it is the responsibility of family and church to provide for the poor. have you ever thought that maybe some families can help other members of their family? have you ever encountered the Bishop who refused help to the truly needy family because his goal that year was to have NO output in fast offering money. how about those who don't belong to a church? should the evil wretches suffer, or should compassion and example be shown?
Splittfinger wrote re: Who are the poor?
on 08-29-2007 12:08 PM
Thanks for making my point.  It is our responsiblity to help those in need.  Not the governement.

Our Country doesn't own 90% of the worlds wealth, we the people do.  The Government takes the wealth. They can't and should not distribute it.

That is my right and my privilege.

The church also isn't limited to helping it's own people. A bishop isn't in over just the members in the ward boundries, but all within the boundries.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying we shouldn't help people.

WE should, not the government.
Desechado wrote re: Who are the poor?
on 08-29-2007 12:18 PM
Melkor struck a couple cords with me. My father left my mother before I was born and basically disappeared until I was about 12. My mother remarried when I was 6. Until I was 6, I have my grandparents, a couple aunts and uncles and the US Government to thank for helping to support me and my brother who is 2 years older than me.

I don't have faith that individuals will step up to the plate in this, or most cases. Individuals and religious institutions don't have the charitable longevity to help some people who may need it for long term. I don't like how the government runs some of it's programs, but it is better than nothing.

Splittfinger wrote re: Who are the poor?
on 08-29-2007 2:58 PM
Is it right for the government to force someone to help?

Do other programs not exist because the goverment is over stepping it's roles?

If the government didn't help, what would have happened?
Splittfinger wrote re: Who are the poor?
on 08-29-2007 3:04 PM
.....(i'm so happy to have another discussion going)
Desechado wrote re: Who are the poor?
on 08-30-2007 9:56 AM
During this time, we lived in a small one bedroom house in South Salt Lake. My mother slept in the living room while my brother and I slept in the small bedroom. My brother wore clothes that were hand-me-downs from older cousins and I wore his clothes after he grew out of them. My grandpa always made sure we had shoes, toys and bikes (or trikes). My grandparents, aunts and uncles provided childcare when needed and helped with some of the rent and food. Coming from a poor working class background, my grandparents, aunts and uncles couldn't afford to help much more. They gave her a small, run down car. Before the car and when the car wasn't working, she used the bus. Luckily, a neighbor was a mechanic and he helped with car repairs. The church helped a little, but the focus there is more short term. The rest was provided by food stamps and welfare. We lived VERY meagerly. There were times when my mother went without food so that my brother and I could eat. If we didn't have the government aid, we would have been homeless.
After my mother remarried, we no longer needed church or government aid. My mother and step father bought a small, 3 bedroom home. I thought we were really moving up in the world at that time.
Splittfinger wrote re: Who are the poor?
on 08-30-2007 10:41 AM
Desechado, thanks for the personal story.  It give you a unique position on the issue. My family also went through a simalar time.  Fortunatly by Grandpa had a cow, and my dad could hunt.

It seems the biggest diffrence is the position of a working man (dad, husband) in the house.  Single mothers get the brunt of these situations.  I recently saw and article on the top 10 most shop lifted items.  Surprisingly (or not), most items on the list where womens personal items.

One of the things i've mentioned, is the goverment has the obligation to protect life.  A mother in these situtation, and her children are facing a life situation. There is a time for the government to be involved. As Citizens of the country, we have committed, by our own free will and choice, to protect life as well. This is a valid situtation for government assistance.

In this discussion, i wanted you all to think hard about what the role of government assistance should be.  In most cases these days, they go too far.

During your time of trouble, you would have been happy to receive a good meal on the table, where today, the kids in the governement programs aren't happy unless they get an iPod. Thier parents don't think they are getting enough if they can't by beer, and cable TV.

And we are paying for this? I don't have an iPod or Cable for family.

I didn't got to college, my dad only got a 2 year degree.  We both make triple figures in two diffrent industries. Hasn't effected us.

Should the government be sending kids to college on my dollar? Why?

(especially when the church has a far better program)

And now, all the way back...

Where are the Dads?
Melchor wrote re: Who are the poor?
on 08-30-2007 3:43 PM
the church may have a great program for college education (the perpetual education fund), but remember, this is only for people outside the US. for those in the US that can't afford tuition, the government has a similar program with government insured student loans. as a matter of fact, the idea for the PEF is a hybrid idea from the perpetual immigration fund (immigration is a sore spot with you conservatives) and government insured student loans (also a sore spot).
Splittfinger wrote re: Who are the poor?
on 08-31-2007 9:41 AM
Once again i ask you, what is so important about me sending other kids to college with my tax dollars?

Remember you are talking to a guy who didn't go, and if fine.

What is wrong with company sponcred scholarships? Why is the government even involved?
Desechado wrote re: Who are the poor?
on 08-31-2007 10:03 AM
I have an uncle that went to college on a company sponsored scholarship. He was in the right place at the right time. This is very rare for those who would be great assets, but not in the right place, knowing the right people, at the right time.
Splittfinger wrote re: Who are the poor?
on 08-31-2007 10:13 AM
Isn't rarity a good thing?

It sounds like you guys are considering it a right to go to college.
Desechado wrote re: Who are the poor?
on 08-31-2007 10:20 AM
An education up to 12th grade is a right. College is a privilege, but shouldn't be only for the privileged. The opportunity should present itself to those outside of it's grasp. If they take the opportunity, great. If not, ...
Splittfinger wrote re: Who are the poor?
on 08-31-2007 11:52 AM
agreed
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